An update for the delayed bot verification request process

Yes, it tends to happen that bot sends more than 3 whispers in the span of 1 second (not very often, but I’ve seen it happen on one of the bots one of my friends host when streamer’s chat was very active and bot had to reply to many people at once).
I don’t have a very big community myself, but in some bigger ones bots whisper over 50-60 users in the span of 24 hours with plenty different messages, such as: warnings for violating channel rules with timeout/ban explanation to the offender, updates about moderation reports that were made by trusted non-moderators or even replying to moderators, who execute commands such as “nuke” within whispers.
So these rate limits currently present are not sufficient and it makes it impossible to set up and host another instances of these bots in any bigger communities with active communities without risking bot banned from whispers for 24 hours for no apparent reason.

All of this sounds like you need/should use a product more “reliable” than Whispers.

And for most of those use cases I’ve done exactrly that with my own tooling.

Edit: thats not me saying don’t use whispers, thats me saying I’d never of considered whispers for this in the first place

If bursts are your issue, implement a message queue.

Whispers are not designed for this sort of purpose, so if you’re trying to force a solution together using it then you’ll run into the limitations of the Whisper system. Rather than open up the whisper system for potential abuse by expanding rate lmiits, and having to have the devs apply for and wait for rate limit increases, it makes sense to use/develop a solution that’s more fit for purpose as many of the larger streams/events or even small streamers with structured moderation teams already do.

Will I really have to force people, who came to the stream without any knowing any background of what moderation “tooling” is used, prompt to authenticate on some dashboard or extension and authorize the application just so they can get a single message regarding some moderation message regarding a warning they received? Realistically speaking, people won’t ever bother opening up chatbot’s website and learning things there ever.

Using basic twitch’s features is more convenient than having to open up a browser but fair enough.

Or you just have the bot say the warning in chat, the medium in which the offense took place, so that the offending user is warned, and everyone else is reminded of the rules. Even in high traffic channels this has proven effectiveness.

For moderators yes. They will be educated to use the tools that the channel uses. And moderators may keep the tool open for the duration of the stream, even more so if that tool embeds the stream and chat. A “custom” third party mod view, which Twitch itself now has. See → Twitch Twitch Moderator dashboard/modview

An Example:

For viewers/users no, I wouldn’t whisper I’d use ban/timeout reasons. Since I don’t expect good deliverbility rate on whispers, especially to new people whom are new to the channel. And/or @ messages in chat.

I’d expect having even worse rate of reaching the user with timeout reasons (especially for short timeouts or purges) because users either use the mobile app (which doesn’t support ban reasons, i just tested it :󠀀) or can’t read fast enough. Whispers are just plain better because they are older, thus more supported and they stay permanently so there is no problem with reading them fast.

Sounds like a bug that should be reported so it can be resolved.

And then miss the whisper if they even are on a whisper supported platform and/or have whispers enabled anyway.

fixed it :stuck_out_tongue:

Often find repeat offenders didn’t read the channel rules un the first place or any message that gets sent to advise them of the rules. But it’s a mixed bag

Except that whispers have proven unreliability for bots, as they are not designed for this use case. Regardless of verified/known status a significant portion of bots can’t send whispers with the degree of reliability that would be suitable for sending moderation related messages.

What do you consider the designed use case for whispers to be?

If thats an open question to the forum.

I consider whispers to be used by two people whom are not bots/automated entities to send a private message to each other, where there is no channel context.

Since whispers don’t “belong” to a channel. When I’m off watching some streamer and someone whispers me going “can I get an unban” I first have to ask them which channel they refer to, for example.

IE: for channel agnostic messaging.

First party usage, powering the functionality of the twitch.tv site itself and other Twitch apps.

Much like PubSub, the design is primarily a first party product, which developers are allowed to have access to as a secondary concern but not the primary function. Unlikely products like EventSub, or Helix, which are products developed for the 3rd party community as Twitch uses separate services internally.

All 3rd parties attempting to use whispers have to do so within the limitations of whatever anti-spam measures, restrictions, rate limits, and other limitations that Twitch don’t disclose for obvious reasons. Because of this whispers are not a reliable communications medium for what a lot of people are wrongly attempting to use it for.

So I’ve had an application declined under the premise that it does not meet the new requirements. Why are my old verification applications that were submitted under the old rules being held to the new rules?

I also note that “Bot verification no longer grants whisper functionality as is stated in our documentation”, yet the documentation says that the whisper limits apply to “All Twitch accounts”, yet none of my new bot accounts have this function. Why?

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It doesn’t matter when you submitted the applications. If they are being reviewed after the dates listed above for the new limits, then they will be reviewed according to the new requirements. If the new requirements say you don’t need verified status, then you don’t need verified status.

I don’t understand your question. Your new bot accounts are the same as every new user account, ie there’s limitations on whispers, and there’s no way you can get around that. Twitch don’t disclose the details of their measures to prevent misuse, all we have to go on is what many of us developers have experienced and that is that new account have severely limited whispers as a bot, and even older accounts have had significant issues to the point where it’s highly recommend not to use whispers on a bot.

Hi @alazymeme,

The note you received should be changed to say something more like, “Bot verification no longer grants enhanced whisper functionality as was previously stated in our documentation.” We’ll get this updated.

To confirm, all accounts, including bots, have the same whisper rate limit as defined here.

Is there an update to the backlog available?

I have a bot approaching 300 users so app restarts are definitely a pain point with the current 20/10 rate limit.

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What is defined as enhanced whisper functionality? The rate limit is stated on your website as All Twitch Accounts, despite new accounts not having the basic functionality of whispers. How can All Twitch Accounts have the same rate limit when new accounts can’t even whisper?

Severely limited refers to no whisper functionality over irc whatsoever.
If it’s highly recommended not to use whispers on a bot, then the documentation should be updated. As it stands, I have many bots with whisper access, all of which have zero issues whispering people.

Now that these dumb new bot rules have come into effect, the whisper system that worked perfectly for all of my bots, now no longer works due to the bots being declined from verification and new accounts being straight up blocked from using whispers.

The abuse that came from the verification system could’ve easily have been prevented by simply looking at an account’s activity on twitch prior to giving them verification.

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Because rate limits and anti-spam measures are 2 separate things. New accounts have the same rate limit old accounts do, but the anti-spam measures (which Twitch doesn’t disclose for obvious reasons) impact them more than old accounts.

As has been stated many times previously, there are a significant portion of devs who have been doing this for years who have some accounts that can send whispers, and some that can’t, regardless of age or known/verified bot status. If you’ve been lucky enough that you haven’t experienced issues then awesome, but it’s something that’s been warned about on the forums and TwitchDev discord for a long time now so if it’s impacting you now, that’s unfortunate but expected. Perhaps now would be the time for you to look into a solution more fit for purpose than whispers for your bots.

I agree that the docs could be updated to mention that there are other security measures in place to prevent misuse, but the specifics would likely never be included in the docs.

I’m also having the same issue. Restarting is a tedious task.